In this episode, Jim James speaks with Paul Meyers, a coach, mentor, VC, and investor with 20 years of experience in the startup industry. Meyers highlights that the media portrays founding a startup as something glamorous and successful, but in reality, it's emotional and can lead to mental health problems for founders. Meyers suggests normalizing discussions around mental health and creating safe spaces for founders to talk about their fears and challenges.
Meyers also discusses why males are less likely to approach mental health coaches than females, due to societal expectations of appearing strong and competent. He notes that the stress of being a founder can lead to unhealthy behaviors and a loss of empathy. Meyers suggests that displaying empathy and normalizing conversations around mental health can help founders recognize the symptoms of stress and address them before it becomes too late.
Post-production, transcript and show notes by XCD Virtual Assistants
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Intro:
Welcome to The UnNoticed Entrepreneur. This show will tell you how to get the recognition you and your business deserve. Our guests share their practical insights and tools, which you can use straight away. Your host is International Entrepreneur, Podcast Host, and Author, Jim James.
Jim James:
Welcome to this episode of The UnNoticed Entrepreneur, with me, Jim James. And today we're in Singapore. I'm here with Paul Meyers. Paul, welcome to the show.
Paul Meyers:
Hi, Jim. Thanks so much. It's great to see you again after so many years.
Jim James:
I know. Paul and I go back the best part of 27 years with one another. He's been an Entrepreneur and a Pioneer in Asia, especially in B2B and Tech, and Media. But now he's really leading the industry on "Entrepreneur Mental Wellbeing and Health." Paul, tell us why is mental health such an issue for Founders? Because I thought everyone was on a journey making money and was pretty happy.
Paul Meyers:
Sure, sure. Thanks, Jim. Let me go back a little bit and set it up, okay?
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
That, I'm a multiple times Founder. I've had a couple of exits. I've had a couple of train wrecks. I've had a couple of zombies. I've kind of been around the startup industry as it were for about 20 years now. I've been a Coach and a Mentor, and a VC and an Investor. And during that time, I've seen both firsthand and anecdotally that being a Founder is very difficult. It's not as glorious as it's always painted to be. And in fact, it's quite difficult and emotionally it's trying, and a lot of founders struggle with it because one, the media portrays it as you have to be successful, you have to be big. And we see Elon and we see Zuckerberg, and we see all the big names being successful, but they're like literally one in a hundred thousand, one in a million. Where everybody else is much harder. So that's number one. And number two is, you work very hard for 7 to 10 years, and it's all uncertain and all changing, and there's no real internal guideposts. And then, the third part is nobody talks about it, right? It connotes or we believe it connotes weakness, and failure.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
If you say,"Help, I need help."
Jim James:
And you know, you and I have founded businesses together in the same city in Singapore over the years now, and I've watched you and have been amazed by your resilience as well, Paul. So, if you work with Founders, how do you get them to, if you like, address the biggest problem, which is talking about it in the first place, so recognising weakness. How do you start with that conversation?
Paul Meyers:
Right, another good question. So, interestingly here in Singapore where my practice is called "Asia Founder Coaching." And I coach Founders in Asia. But, as I talk to people and I get incoming inquiries and actual coaching numbers, I'd say 7 out of 10, 8 out of 10 are women, are female Founders. Which is really interesting considering that NET 15% of all startups have a one woman Founder. And 2%, 3% of venture money last year went to female founded companies globally. So if you look at the number of female Founders I'm talking to as a percentage, it's quite remarkable. So it's very difficult for men still here to talk about that. Okay. Here being Asia, Southeast Asia, women are... it's a little easier.
Jim James:
So how does it work? Do people sort of wait until it's too late? Or how do you help them to start to think about it before it's too late, because getting into a business often you've got enthusiasm, you've often got partners, Founders, and support. And it's kind of like a marathon really, isn't it, after the kind of the 10 to 12K? It starts to really feel hard. How do you get them to start to come forward and think about it?
Paul Meyers:
I think part of it here, in Southeast Asia right now, is just normalizing the conversation. It's okay to be talking about it. I think, there are a lot of cultural reasons why people don't still talk about it. I mean, 'failure' is still not very well accepted in Southeast Asia and Singapore, in spite of Singapore's great effort to make a great startup scene and a lot of money, and a lot of structural support. Failure is still not talked about. So this connotes that. So normalizing the,"Hey, I feel bad.""Hey, this is scary.""Hey, you know, I'm depressed or worse," right? Being able saying that,"That's all right." And being able to talk to other people about it. Just normalizing that process is step one. What I do specifically is I have a monthly mastermind, group called "Founder Circle" that I do, and it's free. And I take 10 to 12 Founders closed door, three hours once a month on a Saturday, and we just talk about all those things. Founder to Founder, open up, talk about what's scary, what's difficult. Sometimes there's tears, sometimes there's not tears, sometimes there's laughter, but everybody comes away really charged and changed by doing this. And I think that's one step and that's something that I can do just to help normalize it. Some of those people turn into clients. Some of those people don't turn into clients. Yeah. But I think just making it okay to talk about these things is showing that it's all right.
Jim James:
So you mention that, you know, it's mainly women who are coming to the coaching, but women represented in actual VCs and so on is less than 2%. So there's this disparity. Is there a view on why men are not doing it? Is it a simple issue of 'ego' or a men sort of thinking that they can solve the issue themselves or they go to a cave?
Paul Meyers:
Yeah, I mean, you're a guy. I'm a guy. We know how we behave, right? It's hard to ask for help. It's hard to say."Oh, I screwed up." You know, it's a joke about men not asking directions with maps. It's the same thing, right? Especially if someone's giving you 10 or 15 or 50 million dollars, like asking for help. Like, you don't want to show that weakness necessarily, right? And you have all these people relying on you. You have your teams and your investors and your partner, and maybe your children and your family. You don't wanna show that you're weak. You wanna show that you have it all together. That's a very male trait.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
Right. It's changing some, but that's kind of traditional male behavior right. In the west.
Jim James:
Yeah. So there's a fundamental piece of work. It's interesting that if we had an injury, we hurt our, you know, leg on the soccer field, or we got a cut, we'd go to the hospital to get it fixed. And yet we don't apply the same logic to our mental and emotional wellbeing. So can you maybe give us some ideas of how it can show, you know. How does it manifest in people? Because maybe people also aren't aware of the symptoms they may feel stressed, but maybe not aware of, you know, the root causes. What would be some of the ways that people talk about their feeling unwell?
Paul Meyers:
I think it manifests itself in a few ways for Founders that I've observed and spoken to and my behavior, right? You become less understanding, less empathetic. Okay. I think that's the first thing to go is 'empathy'.
Jim James:
Right?
Paul Meyers:
Okay, as a leader, you're worried about, you know, they're all valid concerns."Am I gonna meet payroll next month?""Am I gonna hit my numbers?""Are my investors gonna pull out?""Are they gonna fire me?""I have to fire my Co-Founder.""I hate my Co-Founder." All those kinds of things. There's a lot of stress there. So whatever your response is when you get stressed out, it's gonna manifest itself. So you become short with people. You don't sleep, you don't go to the gym, you don't eat well, you drink more, you do drugs. Whatever the that thing is. That's where you start to see it. People's behavior starts to change and goes in that direction.
Jim James:
Okay. So quite quickly, do women respond differently? Are women also avoiding the gym, hitting the booze, or do they have different ways of responding do you find?
Paul Meyers:
I don't see it as much. I'm not an expert in it. So I don't see it as much. I see it much more with men. Because I'll go out and hang out with guys and guys will talk about it and have eight beers one night or 10 beers one night, right? I don't see that with women obviously. Well, maybe not obviously, but I don't see it. Okay.
Jim James:
There are lots, I mean, reassuring. So what would be, if you like, a framework that if people are listening now, thinking, "Yeah. You know, I feel pretty stressed. I don't know, I can't talk to my partner." You know, that's hard to bring it home. Maybe they don't have a Co-Founder, maybe don't wanna scare the Investors. You know, Paul Meyers with your, you know, extensive experience of both the Founder Circle, but also as an Entrepreneur, do you have some kind of framework you can share for people to start to do some self work?
Paul Meyers:
Sure. The first thing I always recommend is talk to other Founders, right? And generally, this is especially true for first time Founders because no matter what business school you go to or what books you read or whatever stories you hear doesn't prepare you for the shock of how difficult it is and how stressful it can be. So, the people who can help you the most may not be your partner at home or may not be a parent, or may not be your Investor. Though some investors are getting better at it. It's people who've gone through it before.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
And they're like, "I know. I hear you." You know, pat on the back, talk it through, and I almost all Founders who have been through it are happy to talk the first time Founders who are going through it, because they know. It's like you're part of this band. You're trying to do something great, you're trying to change the world, right? But it's difficult."So, let me hold your hand, let me help you out." And that's the first, and sometimes, that's enough. Just to know that there are others like you.
Jim James:
Yes.
Paul Meyers:
Who've feeling the same thing that you're feeling and you're not weird or alone or you know, "I'm on Planet X," you know. It's okay. It's cool.
Jim James:
Yeah, and I think that, so we've got people to start to talk about it. They might get in involved in a group like "Founder Circle." Are there some other things that you can't recommend once they've spoken, but you know, they've then gotta get on with work and they can't be doing that all the time. Are there some other tools or sort of, approaches or mindsets that you can help people with?
Paul Meyers:
Sure. I think taking care of yourself is another big one, right? So I have a talk that I give of five things.
Jim James:
Great. Your Show that, that'd be great.
Paul Meyers:
Yeah. And the five things really very, basically I go into the memoir depth. The first one is "Talking to other Founders." Okay. The second one is,"Touching someone." Because what happens is we isolate. And when you start to work by your-, you know this, you're nodding. I mean, we all start to isolate and there's a physical reaction, and there's a hormonal reaction to not being touched. Okay? And the opposite of that is when you are touched there's another hormonal response which makes you feel good.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
And reduces stress and it's very helpful. Which is why sometimes it's really interesting. I always thought that like 'cat cafes.'
Jim James:
Yes.
Paul Meyers:
Were the providence of like teenage girls.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
You know, going to pet a cat. But actually, if you go to Japan, and you go to China, what you see are people going to cat cafes and pet places because it's touching, right? It's releasing these hormones that actually make you feel better. Get a massage. Give a massage. You get the same amount of the hormones, you you know, when you get or give a massage. Any of that kind of stuff, you know, don't be weird. But just like, remember, you're a human being and your body and your whole system really needs that. So that's another one. I like, one that I've just kind of discovered for myself is you wake up in the middle of the night and your head's going, right? Just start writing stuff down or getting it out. I do an oral journal now. I recorded it on my phone. I use an app called "Otter." Otter.ai, but other people, you know, there's a hundred apps out there that do it.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
And just like do a brain dump. It could be three in the morning, just get it out and it helps you, I call it 'the purge.' You know, do the purge and it really helps.
Jim James:
And that's great. You talk about using Otter.ai because, I get up and I write to a diary. But that, you know, can take quite a long time. So the idea of speaking to it and then you get a transcript.
Paul Meyers:
Exactly. Exactly.
Jim James:
Anyway. Right. And it's all confidential. So that's great.
Paul Meyers:
And I never was the guy who could sit down and journal by writing. But I can talk, you know, I can talk to the cows to come home. So I just turn it on and brain dump, and it just gets it off my chest, right?
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
Another one that I really recommend, which we forget is, "Celebrate," right? Celebrate your wins.
Jim James:
Yep.
Paul Meyers:
We forget about our wins, right? And whether it's your team or whether it's you, take a minute and say, "Don't they? Oh, now we gotta do this." But pat yourself in the back. Have a cupcake, you know. Go take the afternoon off. Go fishing.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
You know, that's really important to do because we don't, especially as a Founder, where you have a to-do list of 87,000 things, right?
Jim James:
Yeah, and the celebration of small things, it's amazing. As well as we know that recognition is one of the most important elements of job satisfaction.
Paul Meyers:
Exactly.
Jim James:
It's not money actually, as you know. Once people got to a certain level, so if you've got a team around you, giving recognition to them can be as important or more important than giving them a bonus. And, but you say, we forget about doing that.
Paul Meyers:
Because you have so many things. Yeah. Or the team, because you have so many other things to do."Oh yeah, I just closed this a hundred thousand dollars sale, but you know, our target's 1.5 million, how are we gonna do it?" Right?
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
Usually you don't even think about, "Wait a minute. That was cool. Good job." Shake hands, give a hug, buy a cupcake, eat pizza, go to the movies, whatever. You know, take a moment and celebrate.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
It makes a huge difference. And then the last of the five things is, I discovered this. I sold my company and I got divorced at kind of the same time. And so I was a little, I had no idea who I was, right? I kind of lost those two identities, right? And it was difficult for me, and I was raising young children and I'm trying to figure it out. And what really helped me was "Volunteering". And volunteering to help somebody else, okay? And in this case it was helping kids with physical issues, you know, to learn to swim, okay.
Jim James:
Right.
Paul Meyers:
And just teach them how to swim. And that then expanded into teaching people to read. I think. Didn't you used to teach people how to read? Didn't you used to volunteer?
Jim James:
Yeah, I did. Yeah. And in Singapore, I worked with a group called "Cyber Care," and we got reconditioned computers and put them into children's homes.
Paul Meyers:
Yes.
Jim James:
And then I showed the kids how to get onto the internet. And it was to reframed the work that I did in the daytime and say, "Well, here are these orphans, you know, who were delighted to have one computer between 25 of them. And more importantly, someone to go in and share with them how to use it and have the time."
Paul Meyers:
Precisely.
Jim James:
Was really that they mattered, was really the point.
Paul Meyers:
Yes. And what I think that does for you as a Founder, you as a human, who's dedicating their time to volunteering to help someone out is not think about yourself, you're thinking about someone else, right? I make a joke about it. We made a joke about it. I was a boy scout as a kid and you know, the boy scout motto is, "Do a good turn daily."
Jim James:
Yes.
Paul Meyers:
And it was always portrayed as helping a little old lady across the street, and you know, 15 year old boys snicker when you hear that. That isn't the right marketing message for a 15 year old boy. But the reality is it's kind of true. And if you can do that and you can help people out and just stop thinking about yourself for a little while, it puts everything in perspective.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
And it balances the world. So I'd look at that as being important as well.
Jim James:
Yeah. And I think that's really good. I've been getting up and doing in the morning a meditation around. Be grateful and do good and be healthy, right? So let's just talk a bit about health. Any advice you can give people around health and looking after themselves. Because one of the things we all do, and you know, I've been guilty of that as well, is reach for sub-, I haven't never done drugs, but alcohol, coffee, cigarettes, you know. You and I used to go for a smoke, you know, now I think we've both quit that, right? So any guidance of people on kind of looking after their health and the impact that has on mental wellbeing.
Paul Meyers:
Well, I think that most of us at this age have address most of those bad habits.
Jim James:
Exhaust themselves.
Paul Meyers:
You know, drugs and alcohol are still a problem for people our age and our ilk. Not so much here in Singapore, but you know, we do see it. I call it the "Holy Trinity," right. I cook, right? I'd like to cook.
Jim James:
Yes. You've always been a good cook and do great barbecues.
Paul Meyers:
In New Orleans, the Holy Trinity of New Orleans and Cajun cooking is celery and onions and capsicum. Okay. That's the holy trinity. Yeah. So every. Almost every meal of Cajun food has that in it. So the Holy trinity of like basic health is eat, sleep and exercise, right? And that's the stuff your parents taught you and you learned in school, and we learned as kids. And we've all had to relearn them a hundred times.
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
Right. And the hard ways, you know. I smoked, it took me 15 years to quit smoking. And it wasn't good for me. And now I exercise every day and I meditate as well, and I do yoga a couple days a week and I do those kinds of things because I need to, right?
Jim James:
Yeah.
Paul Meyers:
But when you're in your late twenties, early thirties, you don't think you need to as much. But now, amongst ourselves, we know that.
Jim James:
Yeah. And I think, do you wanna just touch on sort of briefly what happens if people don't look after themselves? Because you know, we're talking about you know, it's important, but for younger people who are still feeling kind of indestructible as indeed we did, and then we've all had our moments where we realise we are made of flesh bone. Just a solitary tale. Just, you know, for anyone thinking, "Yeah, but that doesn't apply to me." Not necessarily an individual name, but you know, what goes wrong if you don't look after your mental wellbeing?
Paul Meyers:
Sure. I think there's all sorts of cautionary tales out there. You stay up too late. You drink too much. You do too many drugs. You know, there was a time, in California where cocaine was a big thing. And you know, I had friends who died because they just like, you know, I was in the film business then and making commercials and working on features and, you know, people would stay up late and work hard and party hard, and you just do too many drugs and either their heart would stop, or they'd make ill-advised decisions and drive when they shouldn't, or get on a ladder when they shouldn't. And, you know, boom. You know, that's it. That's how it happens, right? So taking care of yourself out and that doesn't only happen if you do too much cocaine. It happens if you don't sleep. It happens if you don't take care of yourself in other ways, right? That you forget and you think you can continue at that level, but it doesn't work.
Jim James:
No, it doesn't. I guess. And also because most of us are Serial Entrepreneurs. And you need to be well enough to do the second one. If you exit the first one well, that's great. But if you don't exit the first one well, you need to be resilient physically.
Paul Meyers:
Yeah.
Jim James:
To come back, Paul Meyers, you're in Singapore today, but if people want to find out, you know more about you, where can they do that?
Paul Meyers:
So a couple different ways. My coaching practice is called"Asia Founder Coaching," and that's the URL as well. I'm on LinkedIn a lot under Asia Founder Coaching as well as Paul Meyers. And I have two Twitter accounts as well. One is @asiafoundercoaching, and the other one for me is, @visionthing. My personal one. So any of those. Any and all.
Jim James:
And you've got a cool hashtag.
Paul Meyers:
I have a cool hashtag. Which I'm very proud of. It's better call Paul. It has a really nice ring to it. I kind of familiar to.
Jim James:
Sounds familiar. You know, "Better Call Paul."
Paul Meyers:
That think in your head, right?
Jim James:
Well, that's why I wanna do that when I'm back this week. Paul Myers, thanks for joining me on this episode of The UnNoticed Entrepreneur sharing about wellness because we haven't talked about that much. But actually it's a fundamentally important issue for all of us to address. Thank you.
Paul Meyers:
Thank you Jim. Happy to be here. Happy to share.
Jim James:
Yeah. Look, it's great and it's wonderful for me to be here with Paul. We've known each other for over 25 years. And he is an inspiration and I really do take his advice seriously and I suggest, you know, if you're worried about your mental health, reach out to somebody and reach out to Paul, and get some guidance because we need to look after ourselves in order to look after our businesses and until we meet again. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Do you please share it with a fellow Entrepreneur that you think might find it useful? Rate it and review it. And remember, The UnNoticed Entrepreneur book is now available on Amazon. All other players as well with conversations like this one with Paul, all written down for you to have a masterclass of 50 appointments with experts that will help you build your business. Until we meet again, I'm Jim James. Thanks for listening to me in Singapore this week, and until we meet again. Keep on communicating.